Embracing Discomfort: Addressing Systemic Issues and Trauma in Culturally Informed Therapy

Counselling students and AOCASA contributors Paulina Toledo, Meiva Vuniwai, Bauke Hauben, and Siddhi Bapat share perspectives on trauma, diversity, and anti-oppressive practices, shaped by their lived experiences and insights from the ‘Trauma in CALD Populations’ course. They explore the transformative impact of ‘sitting in discomfort’ and consider how systemic racism and intergenerational trauma influence both personal and therapeutic journeys.

The discussion emphasizes the potential of cultural humility and critical consciousness to reshape therapeutic work. Advocating for mandatory education on these topics, they underscore how deeper understanding can inspire action against racial stress and trauma in counselling and call for spaces that amplify diverse voices.

Looking forward, they discuss ways to connect with communities supporting diverse populations, focusing on how collaboration and advocacy can address hidden power dynamics within institutional systems. They envision a more inclusive, empowered future in therapy, one that is responsive to the needs of diverse clients and communities.

Interview:

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Transcript

(This transcript has been automatically generated and may contain errors.)

Thank Meiva, Paulina and Bauke for joining me today and we are waiting for Justin to join, but I'll start with the acknowledgement of the country. 

I acknowledge traditional custodians of this land of which we stand on today. I acknowledge the water, the land and the sky that we have inhabited. I pay my respects to the ancestor elders past present and emerging that have been here before us and currently standing as well keeping the fire burning loud and proud. I pay my respects to the spiritual relation they have with the land, sky and water and I recognize their culture, and I holed it important and close to my heart.

So, moving from here I think the purpose of this conversation is that we all have been part of a course that has been impactful, which focused on trauma and diverse communities. I believe as receivers of that course, we have had internal reflections which might not have been voiced in the class as much and we want the space to be somewhere where we can actually voice these opinions, because future counsellors might resonate with that future. Anyone might resonate with it and that might have validation and many more things. So yeah, I'll handle handed over to Bauke to take it over from here.

Yes, I like your acknowledgement by the way, it was beautiful. Yes, it was. Yes, to start this conversation we the first assignment we had was a positioning statement hmm and just before we started we had a brief conversation about the idea of that positioning statement to understand, especially for me as a white person and hmm, and that's why I want to address this first. My positioning statement, although regarding as important as it is I would like to bring the conversations to more of a depth level as well. Sure. So, if anyone else wants to do their positioning statement, you're free to do it, but you don't have to. So, mine is that I'm white from Belgian and highly educated, heterosexual and a parent. A come from a working class and I have a low income. My less privileged facts are that I'm dyslexic and neurodivergent and I have a chronic illness. That is mine. Maybe someone else wants to join. Thank you for sharing that.

Yes, I will go, I am a Latin woman whose faced oppression, micro aggressions and discrimination due to my race and cultural identity. As a child I saw my parents experience racism, and in relationships, my black and Afro Latino partners have faced racial profiling now has a mother I see my biracial children experience racism and stereotyping in school which fills me with anger and cynicism. It feels like nothing has improved for me in this space, in this country. Hmm other aspects, I am highly educated, I come from a middle income family and currently middle income, I am fully employed my children go to a private school and I have never ever had to explain my sexuality or my gender to anyone, because I'm a straight woman. Yes. So, I sit in privilege, if we look at that power wheel, but also sit in marginalization, so I am kind of across both ends That puts me in a good position I think, for people who have experienced or us experiencing racial stress or racial trauma.

My name is Meiva Vuniwai and I am an iTaukei woman, that is, what is known as indigenous Fijian woman. I am a Christian woman in my country that would be a privilege because it is one of the dominant religion and I am from a middle class as well. In terms of oppression, I am dark skinned, and I face a lot of racism and micro- aggressions and also colourism, and hmm did I miss anything else?

No, I don’t think so. 

Thank you hmm my positioning statement would be that I'm a brown woman. I come from a working-class background from an ethno-linguistic group in India. I am here on a visa. That is something that both puts me in that marginalized position hmm. However back home I come from group that is higher on the so-called cast-system. That is there in India, which is an elephant in the room, to be honest. My pronoun. So that puts me in a position of power. I resonate with what you said that it is in the position to serve to help but also voice my journeys. My pronoun is she/her.

Yeah, thank you very much. I want to actually add on that in the sense of like for me it's a bit strange as well because I come from a country where I'm the native person and we were pressed there as coming from a socially lower-class as well. Poor, poor people, but had privilege and I call it really privilege because they really taught me immensely what life is about. I worked in the government's institute for poor people for people who don't have the capacity to live in a society full of pressure. So I worked with them and with refugees for a long time. And yeah, so really hit home. How hmm, how luxurious my life actually is. So, yah I wanted to state that as well.

Okay now coming to what we experienced in class and in the sessions and in what we have encountered. There are, no two of us who did placement as well so if you can link it with placement would be great too, if you have some stories without disclosing people's identities about the experience of what it was in class and how you have experienced that.

Yah I’ll go first, for me it brought home a lot of the things I have experienced, knew I had experienced, but didn't know what it was, I knew what is was having family who are very committed to social justice, I knew it was about inequity, but the class thought me about the responsibility people need to take to hmm when working in therapy about committing to the process of equity and that isn’t just about, you know like I am a therapist and I'm an expert and you are the client so you do what I say. Because it so much bigger than that, it is about, you know, collaboration and empowering a client, but not empowering them just in a therapeutic space, empowering them in society and so for me to be able to do that I need to commit to certain values that are thought to us in class. That is things like cultural humility, accountability, self-critical, critical self-reflection hmm anti-oppressive practice hmm critical consciousness promoting ethno-racial identities of our clients because that will always work out to be an antidote to racial stress, racial trauma and oppression. So that is probably the biggest takeaway from that class is that this is kind of highlighted this massive power of therapy, which is not that big in where we live, it is actually not, I haven’t seen it, in terms of it being discussed. And I feel like the class should be compulsory for every student, I don’t think it should be an elective. No it is like it's again a choice for people who don't need to choose this. Yeah, like ignoring it again. Yeah, I agree. Sitting in discomfort of privilege, so why don’t people want to have a mirror for themselves when they are not ready for it. But they are not going to pick this subjects. But if you got no choice, you will have an awakening regardless if you want it or not, and I think that is super important in this space. 

I loved what you said and that brings me to this thing I have been thinking about and love to go to each one of your with this, it’s something about, so you mentioned that discomfort, your positioning in this space which was a takeaway for you perhaps and in the last class I remember talking about burning your own wood and the discomfort sitting with the discomfort and I was wondering if that resonated with you. What does that mean for you sitting in the discomfort or even when you arrive at this position that you have now, what was the process like for you? 

The process for me was hmm, I started this process as a young child because I grew up, like my family's, my parents were political refugees from Chile and I had these conversations with my mom at a very young age and it all started off with why am I not blond, why am I not blue eyed? Why did you make me look like this because I suffered a lot of racism as a child and then these conversations led to well you got brown hair and brown skin, dark brown eyes because we are from Chile, well, why why we here in Australia why are we not there? And then I learned about the war and learn about and the dictatorships. So those conversations I had very young, so I knew what was. The awakening or sitting in the discomfort was knowing that I felt that this knowledge that we see in class is not everywhere, not for everyone, so no one knows about it. It is almost like it has been gatekept, it’s like not, because it's poignant for people of colour because it gives us an understanding of where we sit in this world. And then sitting in discomfort is, it felt like, it feels like I am shaking the world to make people see where we are, what we are doing and knowing, no one knows sometimes I think holy smokes we are here in a reality, where people don’t even know they are being oppressed. People don’t know they are being oppressed; people don’t know even how to start this conversation. So my discovered was again, just kind of realizing that this is this is massive, this is social, this is colonization. It is the structural racism it is the systemic racism it is the interpersonal racism, and it is the internalised racism. There are four levels of racism so for me it is like what are we doing? How are we fixing this? Who is working on this, and it is like well there is only a few people, I don’t even know it existence in Adelaide? I like to be one of the firs, to be honest, or if there is more, I want to join them. I don’t know if it answers your question, but I hope it does.

No, it does, it does. Yeah, is there one emotion, one word for that discomfort? Anger. Anger. Anger, because it is, if you look at racism and how people discover what a micro-aggression is, you realize that micro-aggressions are everywhere all day for people of colour and it is constant and no wonder you got people of colour with high levels of anxiety and depression in shame and guilt because they can’t even exist in public spaces without having some type of micro-aggressions. So how can it be that people find it okay to subjugate and oppress other people in public spaces like this and then do nothing. Why, if we are therapist, we aren’t doing stuff about this, because this is like this is the way the world exists whether we like it or not, it's anger. Anger but also action they are two words, anger and action. 

Is there someone else who feels that burning wood.

Yeah, for me personally I resonate with burning of your wood I guess that is what they said. Yeah. For me kind of , what do you call this, incongruency with the positioning statement. Because from in my culture like propositioning student you are told to do privilege and from my culture, in the positioning statement here, we are told to state your privilege, you know. And from my culture that can be considered as like you being, would be putting yourself up there, trying to position yourself in social kind of yeah. So, from where come from you are thought, if you want to connect with someone, you have to throw everything about you out, you know. And you come to, like human to human. Yeah. Like to me what burning your wood is about. When I think about that, I burn everything about yourself so I can sit with a person, you know. One person to another person. And I think the other question was what's awakening or what was it? Being awakened in class or something? Yeah. I think for that, similar to Paulina’s experience l, what are the impacts of colonialism for a coloured person? Yeah. Like brining up like having, you know, to question yourself, why am I not blond? And like, if you think about it, who thought you that? You know? How did, as a child, come to your head that you want to look like this, and you are not happy with how I look? Sometimes it is, what is it called, the intergenerational trauma, form our ancestors. They have been told by the whites, you know, harmful words. And those harmful words are past on the our ancestors and our ancestors passed it on form generation to generation. So, yeah, hmm that is another form of intergenerational trauma which is offence people of colour, and they question themselves. Hmm, yeah. Hmm maybe one example I could think of is hmm, probably as a dark person oh, yeah you like a shadow, you know. That was something that is passed on from ancestors and been passed on… Those little things, make a big impact. Hmm. Yeah. 

That is a powerful, yes, it is very much. Yeah, yeah, both of your mention was very powerful. What Meiva said was sort of tracking it back, where does it really go. But then what Paulina said that, how is it still with us. Yeah. In ways that we might think that we left it behind but no. It is very systemic. Yes yeah and I can remember being brought up and being told to be afraid of black people especially Muslim, because the world Muslims around and and and it was like yeah. As a child, you believe that so you just do what they tell you and you be mindful of that to be not at risk, and then I got to meet those people and I was like, really guys? Is it, why, why are you doing during this I got to in arguments with my parents with family and friends about it because I was like no, it is actually it is crap it is not true. And Aolani in the car. Hope I can quote her. She had it from a study she read and it is like the first thought you have is a thought of society. What society wants you to think, and then the second thought is around what you choose to think is your own opinion, and I quite like it because that's actually what what happens with me. So my first thought still is, for example, not all the time and sometimes especially around men like if I see a man, I'm afraid by that's my fear and doesn't really matter if what colour they have. But I do guess in our subconscious will have that thought, that will flash by. That it's a coloured person and I need to be afraid of the colour person now immediately after I'm like this is just a person and I might feel unsafe because there is a real valid reason that I feel unsafe and it has nothing to do with which colour he has. So I can, but I can relate to the other side. Like the pressure you have the things that were told to you and in the stories that they had and finding out in my 20s, like hey hang on. I had not a lot of people of colour around me growing up because we lived in a small town we went to a small school like there's a lot of that, that isolated me from bigger cities. So yeah that’s that other side and in the way I guess I had a bit of a feeling of being less because I went to school with all wealthy people and I was the only one with both parents were having had any education like I was the first one doing all those sort of things. So that I had a bit of that, but I guess it like I know it's just not what it is for you guys, but that gives me a little bit of an understanding of what that means. It is still marginalization. Yes, it's a different kind. Yeah.Yeah.

If you kind of think about the person who is hmm dark skinned and from a religious minority, from a cultural minority, who might be gay and or from a pore socio-economical background, all the levels in which they have to constantly stand up for themselves every day. Yeah the constant battle yeah the battle, how do people not see this? No wonder they are not fatigued and if they are fatigued where do they get the energy to keep fighting from, where does that come from? 

Yeah. I just feel like, it comes from the body. It’s manifestation of illnesses that are then been passed on in generations, yeah, but that is just from my understanding. From my readings and understanding of the reading of things. Hmm what I really liked from what you mentioned Bauke, the intersectionality that you sort of touched on with regards to your experience, may that be gender, colour, social economic status, I wonder what was the discomfort for you in this course and what was your internal experience of it?

Well the discomfort was, I guess "the guilt” for being able because I have quite a bit of confrontational things in my life. Like my, my chronic illness. My, my dyslexia my neurodivergence like there's a lot to handle their and I can’t even imagine what it is for people who have black skin or are a lesbian like even putting more pressure on them hmm, but I can hide, I can hide and I have hit for quite a long time. I think since I moved to Australia because I can't stand the cruelty of society because I've been with those walked along, those people knowing that I can't do anything about it. Knowing that I work for an institution that doesn't want to change our work with organizations that don't want employ people that I worked with, and how do you deal with that, and that that's where I was hiding and I still can hide and understand through this course that it is actually not okay to hide. I need to do something I need to take action, and I do in the sense of when I speak to people with friends and I disagree. I will say something, but outsiders of that I don't because I feel too fragile myself to fight, but I know now that that it's a luxury to do that because I can make that choice and many people don't have that choice, so that's my discomfort that guilt as well. And then I think what I want to learn from that and where I feel empowered is to find the people and to see how I can take action, and I'm here and doing this source. I think I was afraid to do this course because I knew that was gonna come, confrontation would happen. So yeah that is me.

Thank you for that.

And for you Siddhi what was your burning, your discomfort?

Hmm it was more about knowing my privilege back home and obviously knowing my marginalization here. Hmm. So sort of having like living in two worlds, because I have not completely left my home life, I still living on a visa, so I still live in two worlds. So yeah that was tricky because back home, I might be a fair person, here I am a brown skinned person and it changes everything. So yeah just to have that knowledge of how you position differently in different contexts. Your positioning might not be the same it is context dependent is my takeaway from it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The discomfort was to like you said acknowledge that can of like I can’t hide but can at home acknowledging that was hard because may that be ignorance or whatever, I did not look at this like that back home. Yeah, yeah. 

To add on to that, are there things that changed for you guys? Like within the course, maybe through replacement or the information that we got that some things changed. Yeah, there are working here, so I am sorry for the hammering above our heads, so is there something that change for you like in the way you like ideas that you got from course or things that you heard that you implemented in life or in your placement?

Yeah, can I go first? Yes. For me personally. I saw like how a lot of practices are so westernized because like we are so influenced by like white people. We think that every whit culture and everything, is correct. You know. Yeah, yeah. I think coming to this course I have been thought like, no you have your own of doing things. Like for example, I think I shared it with you in the discussion forum for our course, like for example; counselling back home is not being considered, people don’t really go to. But then during the STTARS class then they were talking about how Afghanistan woman trying to contextualise, and then I though, hang on, what if, you know, what if people back home don’t go for a counselling, because sitting face to face is not a thing we do, you know. Hmm. And like for us, back home, we are taught to respect people of authority, we are taught to respect hmm people of power, you know. And sitting face to face is like a formal interview, you know and let’s say someone who is already marginalised, who is already facing violence and come to sit in that and is from my culture and have to come and sit in a room where they have to do face to face, they will be more, more powerless. Because they are forced into that setting. Yeah, and that kind of opened my eyes, what if we contextualise this, because back at home in my culture, if I have to go to a friend to share something, you know, that is bothering me, I will go to that friend they will take me, spread a mat, have tea and then discuss it. We don’t have to sit face to face, no, we can face the ocean both facing the same why because we don’t, because eye contact can be a problem as well. Yeah, hmm. And sitting in that western face to face, having that eye contact is really, yeah, can be sensitive or for my culture at least.

Hemm yeah. That sounds like it is going to be an amazing way you can add that to fit where you live, how the people exist in a way that will work for your clients and for you. Yeah. Because you can’t, this is the thing that is amazing about this class hmm, you know, it highlights everything that we have been taught in our undergrade and our master’s is not necessarily right. Hmm, yeah. It is a model, it is a framework, it’s a system, it’s a school of taught. Yeah. I think. Yeah. Therese other ways, other ways we can adapt it and it is usually the westernized methodology that tries to discount the other knowledges or of the other schools of learning. Yeah. You know, in terms of  society and intensive decolonizing therapy is taking back and reclaiming the space and doing it the way that feels right and authentic and culturally responsive. Do it sound perfect Mei. 

Yes it does, and it reminds me off like what we've learned like you have and I don't, I don't want to disregard the model but cognitive behaviour therapy is high up there because it can be tested, because it can provide studies around it because it's easy to study, but then something like sitting outside with the client instead of going inside and like that is that as well that deeper level of understanding or connecting with someone I think has to do with nature has to do with how you perceive each other and not clinically  bring it into a room with two chairs and that because it's not being able to test, and that's something that western society once it doesn't exist as long as you can’t prove it and that's for me such a wrong way to go about things. 

That is really interesting. Yeah. 

I think so from what I heard and I resonate with that as well, going back to the roots sometimes is something that I learned from the schools again, and I see this practices like anti-oppressive practices, very few, but those who are there I sort of focusing on going back to the roots. And I wonder where like the all the culture or communities had their own ways of healing of which in this framework now is been called counselling and psychotherapy. Yeah, that is correct. I think so it is interesting how the yeah the two words, there is that duality that I feel is there. Hmm yeah. 

For me it kind of raises the questions, because what we have learned what we read is mostly Western westernized, how can we take that and integrated into our culture and how can we let people from our culture know that you know? The western modality is  not always correct, we have to put in context. Because sometimes the people, to be honest, some people will strongly disagree, no. so you know we are so colonized that most of peoples mentality still is the same yeah. Yeah. 

That is the difficulty of the whole, of the thing, that people don’t know, people don’t know they are oppressed. Yeah exactly. And people live in oppression and believe like the internalised stuff , believe the stereotypes stuff their own, people that have been created by, you know, the majority and the powers and then they come to believe it and then its authentic and so they sit in that for years and years and years and years and it’s hmm.  So starting that conversation with people which I have an infographic about. About broaching, it is going to be good. What was the question? I forgot. if that there was changes for yourself in your practice or in your life that you see differently after doing a course. I think I told Siddhi about this. I really would like to create a practice specifically hmm to increase the diversity of brown and black and indigenous women and men and an anti-oppressive work. I really feel like it something that I wanted to do and I want to have safe space for practitioners to be able to work with that modal and and have and feel like keep it, you know, specifically to support marginalize people, whoever that might be. Yeah. whatever marginalization that might be. Hmm you know, I feel like it is an important space that needs to kind of be created if it doesn't exist. If it does, then yah created again. Keep it available so people of colour, like indigenous people or colour can source therapist that can understand it and have experienced it. Because there are certain things that, experiencing racism that is so deeply personal and it leaves you, it won’t leave you for days, sometimes, hmm so or years, or a lifetime. So unpacking that for people I think is about, you know, I think it is precious keep those workers safe and protected in their own space. Yeah. I think is important work. So that is probably something I have taken from this. I don’t know how I would do it but I would like to. 

Yeah yeah. That is a beautiful dream, hope that you have. Somewhere I have that too. I don't know how either, but yeah. We work it out together. 

A beautiful aspiration and you Siddhi do you have anything change for you?

I can go first if you like. Sure, sure. If you want to think about it a little bit more. Yes, yes. I think what you were talking about like for me it is quite obvious that I find the richness of other cultures is so rich while our culture is been taken away from thousands of years already gradually more and more, and is actually an empty shell left off what our culture was like, and I feel the richness of of native cultures everywhere in the world. There is so much to learn from them and then understanding that those cultures think there are less this is for me yeah is just astonishing. Really why? And I understand that now, more like I never thought of it that way that that that's a deep intergenerational like you're saying, trauma that keeps on feeding into them, saying that you're less, you need to be different, you need to be more white, are you kidding me no, don't. You are much wiser than we are, there is nothing left of us. That's how I feel about it and I didn't know that that side of it’s not an issue, but that side is so powerful to work with you. It's not only why people need to step up, but it is as well like that trauma that keeps being fed. So it goes both. Yeah, yeah. Perpetuating. Yes. Western, putting it up a pedestal the western knowledge than the other knowledges if that is a word but yes. It is not being valued and yeah. And that is how I think the system has employed white people in, like as internalised inferiority that is coming from a colonized background. Yes. I can see how the system employs white people to sort of have that maintenance of power in one way or the other. I unknowingly have that as well. Yes, yeah. Does that make sense? Hmm. Yes, yeah. Something else that I got from this is researching this website and what we are doing is that of being thirsty for new knowledge in this specific area. So I am really trying to widen my knowledge base. So I ordered some books of Amazon which I don’t like to do but Booktopia is closed so. And amazon is crooked, but anyway and something I normally boycott. SO there is a book that is called " How do we antiracist”, which I really want to get into, which I read amazing stuff about. I really want to raid “the politics of trauma” by Stacey Haines, that something that I haven't read but I'm dying to raid after “My grandmothers hand” by Mannikin as well. Massive stuff beautiful books on antiracism and antiblack racism or Latino racism coming from America and the UK. Yes. Massive from the UK British populations writing some amazing stuff there, and they are really vocal about, which I love and I don’t see that vocalness, well I indigenous people/populations doing that work. But I don’t see other minority groups doing that work and that worries me and if they are I am not seeing it might be in other ways, but that makes me feel like I have to be more active and political and address things in a more vocal obvious way. Yes. 

And I think in our classes as well that our class being a sample of the population. I'm sure there have been instances where people wanted to say something but felt scared. Yes, yeah. To say so, so I am wonder if that is in the population around and in Australia? Yes absolutely. It will definitely be there, I think. People are scared, in general. And the aggressions around it as well. That that is thing I think that people of colour have to be careful with. This is, when ever you get angry or upset, that it is considered aggression. I was thinking about white Australian though, but I understand what your mean. It is a problem. It is a full on issue you have to always look rational, you can’t get upset. You can’t show any type of emotion other than being amicable hmm amenable and hmm friendly. Theres is like no other agreeable and acceptable form of public discourse for people of colour other than being happy friendly and vibrant in our area. And definitely not as a female is a man, maybe a little bit more, but not from colour because then you are completely at fold. Yeah and specially for woman of colour. I wonder as well. If that was something class that was because in my in how I felt in class it was so focused on white and how white people need to do this and white people need to do that, and all good like yes, but there were not all white people in the class and I find that very discomfort. Like I felt the discomfort. Yes, that realization. For me to doesn't sit right. This can be changed because that is not okay yeah I took one of the readings home and my partner was like what! You are not white and I was like yah. Most people in the class are. But yah that is the same thing isn’t it, the white majority like that’s…maybe. Is that ignorance is that the yeah yeah I guess it's about anti-oppressive practice in practising class means having the presence of papers that address from the white perspective and from the black perspective and from the brown perspective or from the Asian perspective. It’s like lets look at our class diversity and a pick stuff and then everyone got something. And that is then anti-oppressive practising education. Yeah, I think I question the same, I had the same question in my mind also, what if this aboriginal person in class was doing this program and everything that we are learning is from a white perspective How, how, you know?! You understand what I am trying to say? Definitely, as well-like, there was what one class with an aboriginal person top. Why not one of the white person teaches, like there are so many ways to go about it in a and yeah, it's a very long learning curve to go. Yeah. Yeah, but not to discredit them for having this course I can see that they are on their way. Yeah absolutely. Yeah definitely. So yeah – it’s amazing to have this. Definitely a class that should be a core course. Yes yes yeah yeah I'm also aware that it’s yeah. Yeah it’s almost. To go around just so I want to highlight an acknowledged that there are a lot of marginalized groups like big targeted groups that we did not discuss like people over age 60 language ability ability and sexuality, sexuality, social economy. I know we covert a little bit of that like  social economy. Predominantly spoken about this. Gender yes yes, a little bit. But I just want to put it out there that we have not covered everything we've caught one on the conversation. Yes, as well, how we started the session with our positioning statement that so many layers that we find ourselves in an combination layers that makes it even more poignant, yes, but to finish, before we finish, I want to ask you one more thing what are your hopes after this after this class?

Well, I definitely want to practising this, I love trauma, I just love the space that trauma works in. And trauma therapy and because it is just everywhere and hmm you know it is a reflection of how the most vulnerable people are impacted and of the way our world works today and shows how it is not working. In a sense. So hmm, but yeah I have I definitely want to work in a trauma space so my hopes are to kind of stay in that space. I mean, I work in DV now but I want to kind of widen my trauma knowledge and I like to work, stay in trauma but I definitely want to work racial trauma, racial stress, but all trauma, but I definitely will start working on those. Because if you're actually looking at people who are battling multiple traumas that they carry. Like, think of it is like a backpack and it just full of these heavy stones and heavy rocks and they are lugging that everywhere they go. And then every time they leave the house someone else just put another rock in a backpack. Every day, another present is putting another rock in backpack and is getting heavier and heavier and heavier like I wan to be able to help the person take those rocks out and feel that is just the thing. I feel I have to do, my personal responsibility to give back to people and I always keep in mind the experiences of myself, but mainly my children as that this is a space people working in it because I don't know where it exists in Adelaide like I don’t know who is doing it. So I feel like it needs to be done, so I like to work in that here, that is my hope. Yes that is your hope and where does your self-care sit. That is myself, t think, because it's something I have been passionate about since I have experienced it as a child and experiencing it as adolescents than into my family. My partners my children its its its the only way I can preserve a sense of power in a place where I almost fell powerless, even though, you know, I do have certain powers that other people don't have. But hmm, I guess yeah I think I just that the way the self-care is. Obviously, there is going to be proper methods of self-care, you know like grounding and mindfulness and self-compassion and understanding my own emotions and why I have these drives to do certain things. But it is always going to be focused on healing. Yeah. And healing other will fill me, I think. Yeah, hmm. That is that community spirit? Yeah, and what about everyone else?

Hmm yeah similarly to Paulina I want to work with hmm, my people, back at home, especially the Melanesian culture. So in the Pacific Melanesian Regents, the people of black skin and all. Most of them like we have discussed. They don't even know that they are oppressed and yah, I think one of my goal is to, like even if I don’t make a huge impact, at least like to make them realise, you know. That this was something that was forced on to them and, no they are not born in the wrong skin. That are not, they do not have the wrong type of hair texture – hmm yeah, and I also like to like one of the main opening was that setting, how can we create a setting in my culture, you know. I want to change, I really want to change that, because hmm counselling is a think that, it’s not a thing that and so I was looking up, searching stuff like that. There is nothing about, that maybe the setting is wrong. Hmm. Yeah to say that you know. Maybe, make the right people realize that there need to be changes done, how we practice, especially in the mental health, mental health field. And I know it's a lot of work its going to take a lot of work and it is not something that can happen overnight. It will probably take generations, after generation to make that change. Yeah, yeah, hmm. And if I could at least be that person to knock on the door, you know. Hmm. Make them realise that this is happening, I want to be that person. Yeah. 

Yeah, great. Yeah powerful.

Yeah for me it’s pretty much what everyone overarchingly discussed, I don’t know, but sort of work in this field of trauma and diversity, helping brown people. I see a lot of white literature, I see a lot of black literature I I I don't see a lot of brown voices. So yah, and hmm pretty much that. Yeah.

I haven't figured it out yet though, I I love trauma as well and diverse cultures and I think there's a lot of work for myself in who I am, here is quite different to who I was back in Belgium and I need to consider that more conscious, but I, the way I want to work with people is sitting down with them not using any formality not I need to start with this and that, no I don't want that. I just want to feel into someone sit together sitting on the ground outside, if it is outside that doesn't matter to me and and I – and that’s the difference and that's why I like this type of work because then I can do, how I want to sit with people to ask how they want to sit. And not, and not how it customs to be how it's all forms to be. I don't like that. And that's becomes. That's because of my own background and how I struggled with that from schooling, from all the things that I've experienced that I was like no, not going there again don't want to let anyone experience that either and hmm and yah, it’s a it is a very steep learning curve for me to work and to understand and be hmm vulnerable in my white fragility, but I want to do the  work and I want to be open and know and sit and burn my wood and sit in that discomfort. The only thing that I don't want to do anymore, and that's why I said self-care is that I don't want to feel responsible for the whole package I can't change everyone, but I can make change. Like you said Mei, giving, being that person that says yah knocks on the door and says hey hang on this is not okay. Yeah. Yeah. 

In that you come down to this kind of, you can’t change the world, we can’t change a hundred people, but if you change one person, then you have one person who support their own change. So, one is amazing. Just set the path for one. Yeah. And then, when that one is done, you go to the next one. 

Yeah, that's a tricky thing. But yes definitely. Yes it is. Because you can’t do more than you can do. No no. A big part of therapy is the battle fatigue we get. Yes. Hmm. From battling. Hmm. And if we all going to work in anti-oppressive practice that is going to become a big battle, I think. Yes. Hmm. But that is why it is meaningful and rich and amazing work because it requires us to commit, it's all about actually doing that work. I am really excited about it. Yeah and I think as well, like how we are sitting here together is is quite supportive and strengthening and powerful, Yeah. So I hope as well with doing this that we can come together. Whichever way we are quite happy to be connected and staying power. Yeah it’s good, definitely. Is there anything else that we want to add to this conversation because I quite like this ending. Yeah. 

No not from me, it was it was great to chat with. I can see all of us have literally different backgrounds, so it was good to hear from everyone. So yeah, and also to listen to what everyone’s hope is. Do yes that was empowering. Hmm do you want to say something? Yah, just want to be grateful, for being open hmm in this space. This is such, like me at least, when we were discussing makes me realize how huge, how big this issue, it’s an issue, you know. Hmm. And how big and how deep it is, yeah and like as a calpessant   it's not, like for me it is not just an experience, it is an emotional topic when discussing it. So it can be difficult to be open in a space, so I just want to be thankful of that.

Hmm. Thanks for opening up. Yeah. I appreciate that very much. Yeah. Yeah it is I hindered percent resonate with that emotion and trauma for people. These are things that are so personal and yah it is that, so yah. Yah definitely what you said Mei, a hundred percent. 

Yah for me too. 

To finish the interview I would like to thank you all for coming here for spending some time with us such a rich conversation we had. I think for most people who maybe listen to this for me for certain. Can you give me the details of those books because maybe we can put that down as the reference. So people can look it up. Yeah no problem. Okay, thank you. Thank you.