Beyond Western Norms: Insights on Trauma, Racial Identity, and Anti-Oppressive Practices in Counselling

Explore a thought-provoking conversation between counselling students Siddhi Bapat, Bauke Hauben, and Lauren Campbell, and Sophia Saidi, founder of Yellow Balloon Therapy -social worker, counsellor, and psychotherapist based in Adelaide. Together, they delve into essential topics surrounding trauma, diversity, and anti-oppressive practices in Australia.

This discussion sheds light on the complex layers of trauma, including racial trauma, often faced by migrants and refugees, and considers the ways Eurocentric frameworks can impact marginalized communities. Through a mix of personal reflections and professional insights, the conversation enriches our new resource for emerging counsellors, aiming to support the growth of anti-oppressive practices within the counselling profession.

Central to the discussion is the importance of maintaining curiosity and openness when working with clients from diverse backgrounds. The speakers emphasize viewing clients as experts in their own experiences and encourage counsellors to approach each interaction with a willingness to learn. They also address the challenge of navigating systemic biases while connecting authentically with clients, stressing that meaningful engagement arises from setting aside personal assumptions. The overarching message underscores the value of continual learning, fostering genuine connections, and embracing each client as an individual.

Interview:

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Transcript

(This transcript has been automatically generated and may contain errors.) Hello, Sophia, thank you for having us. We are here from the University of Adelaide, and before we begin

Thank you. Thank you for this opportunity.

We want to acknowledge the people of Kaurna, people who we are meeting on the land, of them and all who certainly has been seized, I recognize and respect their culture, heritage, beliefs and relationship with the land, I acknowledge that they are of continuing importance of the Kaurna people living today. I wish to pay my respects to elder’s past, present and emerging, and to any people of Australia's indigenous community who may be present here today.

And before we begin, I want to emphasis on what we're going to talk about, mostly is a focus of oppression, oppression being for most people, culture, gender, skin colour, but there's so much more to it than that, so, and that's why I'm going to start with my own positioning statement, just to give an idea of how broad that could be. So, for me, I'm a white woman, highly educated, heterosexual, I'm a parent, I'm non-religious. I'm a cis woman, and that's all quite privileged. I have no restrictions there. I'm a migrant as well. English is my third language, and I am in a low-income job. My restrictions mostly are that I'm dyslexic, they're neurodivergent, and that I have a chronic illness that is most the struggle in my life.

Is anyone keen to represent themselves as well in that way?

Thank you for that, and I would like to begin by thanking Sophia for being here and sharing your time with us, but also for the fact that you're here representing yellow balloon therapy, and you're the founder of it, but also acknowledging The beautiful space that you've created, which is neuro Affirmative, but also a very holistic, progressive approach to therapy. So, thank you for that. With regards to my statement, positioning, I would say I'm a brown woman from a working-class background, from an ethnos linguistic group in India. I'm here on visa, so that's something a little barrier that I have. And my pronouns are she and her.

So, my positioning statement is I'm a white, able-bodied female. I had the privilege of being born in Australia. I was born into a low socio-economic, working-class family, but through the privileges I have had, I have been able to now be a middle class 

member of society, and, yeah, I Think that's probably my statement. 

Thank you. Well, my statement is that I am a black woman from refugee background. I am a. It in the position where I get to see and have experienced a lot of oppression, still due to some extent, and I am thankful to you guys for this opportunity to share that awareness and spread their learning and see how they can help the system.

Yeah, the idea of this is basically how we don't have answers to all of these or solutions, but a belief where we should have difficult conversations and as a part of theory of counselling psychotherapy, what responsibility do we have to That anti oppressive practice? And could this be a way to sort of change things for small steps towards it? 

Yeah, yes. If you ask me, I will say yes, this is definitely the beginning of things. There's obviously a lot of focus. There's a lot that needs to be done, but this is definitely the beginning of first step to influencing and making sure that that change is slowly getting rebuilding. A more inclusive space? Yeah, definitely is

And on that note, I did listen to a podcast you were in with Matthew. It was very interesting to talk about, like to hear you talk about your history, like the refugee camps, the immense things you have encountered that, yes, I can't imagine, like people start to mention that, but it's so amazing how you from that experience, come into this beautiful yellow balloon therapy concept, and how you created this through your experience. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? 

Yes, oh, where do I begin? Yes, I, I did the counselling course. But before going into that, obviously, there's been a lot, there was a lot of barriers. And challenges throughout my life, since I was young, like going into the refugee camp, the challenges just as soon as you've been given that name refugee, it never leaves you. I'm not a refugee anymore, but to most, I am referred to as a refugee, and that is something that sticks with you. Wherever you go. As soon as you're given that status, it's there. So that's some of the challenges in schools being a black person, the oppression that I faced, the barriers schools here in Bucha, in the camp, with people in power, so people from refugee background, at least where I am coming from, that's one of the reasons why we have a lot of fear with people in power. So power is a major challenge for most of us, including as therapists, because when we're working with individuals, there's that power imbalance. So, it's a matter of being aware of how much power people perceive us to have. And so, for me, that was quite a challenge. So going into that, studying and becoming a therapist, I also saw that there was a lot of gaps in the way the trainings were provided, so it's more of westernized, Western ways of learning, Western ways of engaging with clients. And I couldn't resonate with it, but I wasn't in that position to say anything would challenge anything or the way the trainings were provided. So, when I finished and graduated and started yellow balloon, one of my main goals was to start challenging that system and the ways that therapy is regarded or provided to minorities, especially people of colour and people from minority backgrounds, and just starting to challenge that and advocate for the system to change. I'm glad you guys are here and that the universities are starting to implement. That we're still a long way, far, long way to go, but at least this is the beginning, and we're getting to get to that.

Can you give me an example how that was for you? Like, say, in school? Like, what kind of challenges were there? Yes, so I'll speak to the studies of counselling, for example, when we're learning, oh, this is when you meet client, for example, they will come with issues you do intake and you have like, fill forms and all that. That may not work for everyone, certainly not for people from my background or my community, because as soon as I see you have paper and pen in front of me, that power comes kicks in. I've lived through refugee camp, and you have a lot of people in power coming. Okay, let's take your information. Tell me about you. What is this? What is that? So, people making decisions for you, you have no say. So that pen and paper brings me back to that. And then it's the setting, the office space. It's like, okay, this chair, there's this there's like a table in between us. So, you are on the side of the tower, and I am just here, so I'm not going to say anything. I'm just going to listen, wait for you to tell me what to do, and maybe you won't see me back here next time. So, it's things like that that I observed in the learnings and in the studies. So, I thought, okay, if this was someone from my community, they'll not come back here, but I'm not in that position to challenge that when you're still studying. So yeah, those that's one example. There's plenty, but yeah, something like that, yeah, what I noticed from my own perspective was at uni is that the focus is quite like 90% on why? Yes, use of society, and in my own humble opinion, I quite don't like that. Yeah, and yeah, I am, I am more like connected to different types of healing and holistic type how to see things. And I cannot understand that is still a lot far away from where I hope to come to, yeah, but we are here now, yeah,

yeah, yeah. And I love what you when you pointed out the gap between the western model of counselling this field and diary, specifically with that example of pen and paper. But it's like we do exist in this context which is very which is Western, so sort of incorporating those inclusive means to sort of bridge that gap. And while I'm still understanding the gap itself, bridging aspect, if you have figured it out or not, that's your dream.

I think the main, the main point, is that we need to listen to the individual, to really listen and take that step further to be. Curious, because every individual is different. We might be coming from the same culture. We're all different, but we're similar in a way that maybe, for my culture, I see that pen and paper, and that's like a trigger, for example, and that's like, okay, this is the person in power, and as soon as there's like that power imbalance, it's not going to work. So, what we do most of the time is, especially for that first meeting, we don't hold it in our office. For example, we asked the individual, where's the best place to meet. It could be in their homes. It could be at the park. It could be anywhere. If they're comfortable coming to us, that's fine, if we make sure they have that option. It's not about you coming to us and me telling you where we're meeting and make controlling the whole situation it's about them, should be a mutual understanding when it comes to that. So, we do a lot of play based therapies, and that's because for most of our play it's like it's a universal concept. almost every culture has some sort of play, expressive ways of working things out. So, play based is our major therapeutic approach, and we use that. I personally found play. It was very helpful when I was in the refugee camp. So, to process some of the traumas that I was going through, I would really put myself into a lot of play and help. It helped me process a lot of things. I didn't know it was therapeutic back then. So that really helped me a lot. And I come from a culture where we are very expressive people. So, we express ourselves in music, dance, a lot of play, and so that really resonates with someone from my culture, whereas sitting and just writing notes that would not work for someone from my background, for example. So it's about listening and being curious and taking that further step to really want to understand the person and the backgrounds and how that can be incorporated therapeutically.

Yeah, that's something that in the interview that really resonated, like the play, the free play that you were talking about. And there are some studies done that say that trauma sits in the body and it's not in your head. It's not analysing whatever, yes, it's just that release of physical release. I like saying

yeah, and I think,

I think that's where a lot of cultures, my in my country have a lot of tribes, and my country is coming from. I'm from Congo, Democratic Republic of Congo, and has a lot of history of being oppressed, a lot of oppression going on. And so a lot of my people would spend a lot of time expressing themselves in play and dance or music to express whatever it is that we're going through, and that seems to be really helping a lot. So we, the people, have a lot of resilience, but there are times when it can be really, really hard, so we have rituals or like ceremonies just to go and play and really express ourselves, so that that becomes like our therapeutic ways of healing and processing the challenges or the traumas that we probably going through as a nation and as individuals.

Yeah, and have you found that connection here too? Maybe like minute or with

that is something that we are working to bring back. So, I'm the youth leader of Congolese community here, and as part of youth programs, we're trying to bring. Lot of expressive ways with our young people. We're trying to we're working with our elders who may have they do experience a lot of grief, moving from our ways of being back home to here, where is the new system? There's a lot of like laws and legalities and things that need to be processed on top of the already traumas that we brought with us. So, a lot of expressive opportunities in different ways that we can so we're trying to bring that up. So we celebrate independence day with a lot of music, a lot of dances we have, like sporting events, a lot of music, dances activities to express ourselves and try to be together as a community. That's a very important, belonging, yes, because we are community people, yeah, we're not individualistic, as it is in the western, we are a community people. So, it's that tell me of like Ubuntu I am because we are, that is really, really a huge part of our African communities. 

It reminds me of something that someone once said to me when I was working with refugees back to my home country, and they say like it's a community that takes care of the children. It's not one person, absolutely, a child is raised by a community. That's a saying we go with in our African it's one of our proverbs that I might be the birth mother of this child, but this child is our child, so the child is raised by the community. So, it's not a one person's responsibility, it's a whole community is responsible. Yeah, yeah, It brings me to like how society works here, like you were saying the individuality and the focus on that as well, and how there's so much pressure on an individual, yes, and that's what I find important to understand, or to bring across to other Western people, to understand that it's not from a personal perspective.

I don't think it's healthy to keep it individual. Yeah, like, yeah, the communities’ connections very important,

yes, yeah, yeah, so we actually having a lot of similar challenges in our communities. Would have children having challenges in schools, and parents not being told or being aware of what's happening, and that child is like feeling a lot of a sense of loss, and since they're not, I don't know, they struggle to communicate, and the family struggles to understand what's happening, because we were community, we're family. How can we work this out? And because there's some things culturally speaking, there's some things that a parent can have a discussion straight with a child, and some things that that child cannot go to the parent for that discussion. They can go to Uncle, Auntie or grandparents. Never the parents, because in in our culture, my culture, specifically, everyone has a role. So my grandparents role is, you know, just be there, be that person that would maybe be joking with me, providing that humour, and someone that I can always go to if I have any challenges, any issues, and if my parents notice maybe you need to talk to someone, they will go and tell my grandparents or my aunties or my uncle, and they will be the people I can talk to. They will be the assigned to me for things like that. And when we come here, there's that. Yeah, that is not there. So some came just individuals. Some came with not just the immediate family. And so that that shift causes a lot of confusion, not just for the young people, for parents. What do we do when this child is going through this, what we do because it's not in our position to talk to them. They can't talk to anyone other than the auntie or the grandparents or that challenge.

Yeah. And then you have on top of that, the misunderstanding from schools, for example, to not see what the conflict is

yes, yes, yeah. So you don't get to be put in that... I can, I would say circle And so whereas the parent might have shared something that would be helpful for that individual, because they're not in that loop. There's really much they can do, and then the child will be left confused with the stigmas around mental health or health in general. Then just adds to that position they can't really speak to anyone at school. First is that oppression your people, your person in power, as long as your person of colour, you have power of me, you're privileged. I'm not. So, there's that perception as well.

Is there something that the school can do to provide more open Yeah,

schools can do so much, as well, as with all other systems, there's so much that needs to be done. Schools can maybe provide trainings or workshops or hold meetings with families, not just when problem approaches. Even before I was running a I was going to present to a group of Africans women, and there was a lot of mothers in that, in that workshop, and some of the questions I was asked is, How do we know what is right, what is wrong when it comes to helping our children who are struggling In schools, we don't know if we say this is against the law our child. Sometimes. I remember one parent was saying, I was told my child will be taken by DCP because I don't know something they didn't do, didn't provide or something. So they were asking, how do we know what to do? They don't know. So maybe trainings like that would be helpful, yeah, because we're coming from different cultures, we want to understand the ways of living here, or what is right or is wrong, so we can train ourselves? 

Yeah, definitely. And I can even relate to that, and I come from a Western country, yeah, you don't know what the power structures are, exactly where you need to be, who you need to come all in health, in education, in community, you don't know anything, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I can relate to that as well, especially, like, what stuck with me was the sort of community aspect that you mentioned about, probably having support and resources. Yes, for example, we had a lot of aunties and uncles around, growing up back in India, and I can see how these cultural or maybe ancestral practices have that element of anti-oppressiveness where the power is shared here.

Yeah, yeah, that's very interesting. 

Yeah, that is something that is, is troubling a lot of migrants here, especially young people, because that where they come from, or the cultures they come from, that power is shared amongst people, whereas here there's like imbalance of power, yeah, and

I can speak from, like, my lived experience coming here, like I think, not just here, but anywhere, wherever you go, you try to adapt that yes mindset, the attitude and somewhere down the line, I feel like I left my importance of that kinship and trying to be more individualistic. Yes, individual, because functioning in individual, ritualistic society is important, yeah, yeah, so yeah, but I wonder, how do we move from this now? Yeah,

I think a way forward is going back, at least. That's what I had to do for me to move forward. I had to visit, not physically, but I had to reflect, go back to go forward. So I had to really reflect on, who am I? What are my people? How were my people viewing things or practicing things? I remember when I finished year, 12, I had I went back to visit my extended family still in the refugee camp. So, I went back. I had a I sat down with my grandma and just observing how everyone was just going about their daily life, and how connected they were all together and as a community, it wasn't like it's a one person job, everyone my uncles, my grandpa, my grandma, my aunties all united in taking care of me and my siblings, because first we are visitors. So visitors hold really power. When we receive visitors, it's a blessing in the in the family, in the community. And second, because it's a family, it's been years since they've seen since we parted, so going back. So we had to be united as a family to celebrate not just the struggles of being separated being apart, but also the Unity we're here and our ancestors. We believe our ancestors are everywhere with us. I do so, acknowledging our ancestors for that protection and making it possible for us to be together again. And so that was something that I felt okay when I go back, I have to fight for this. And that's how it all began again, leading to yellow Berlin therapy, with that mission of making sure fighting for justice, giving the young people the opportunity to practice their cultures without the fear of being oppressed. I mean, oppression is there. It's always been there. It's just being framed differently. It's now. It's more like systemic oppressions. It's not as visible, but it is to us. So fighting that and being an advocate for people of colour and minority backgrounds. Yeah.

yeah, give me an example of that underlying pressure that you feel. Yes,

I'll give you an example. And this may happen, may not, may only be known, maybe to me and not to many people. It will be an example of, say, we're going to a training or a meeting I would be going with one of my staff. Could be you could be Jess, and immediately the impressions of people there will be, oh, you're my supervisor. Yeah. So that I'll be the one noticing that, because I've lived through that a lot, I'll be noticing that a lot, and just having to re-educate people on something that I shouldn't have so things like that there's in schools, had to. Experience a lot of that. People asking, oh, so do you like Australia? I mean, what kind of question is that? Do I say? Yes, I like it, but no, I had no choice but to come here. What answer do you want me to give you? What do you Yeah, I don't know how to answer that, because I would say I like it, but do I really like it? Maybe, maybe not. If given a choice, I would rather be in my home country and just living the beautiful life that I deserve, but that's been taken away from me. Why? Because of, again, systemic and oppressions and all that. So there's a lot of things, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. And then this a lot ignorance, yeah, people choose to to do that. People are not curious. People don't want to learn. So yeah, it's quite a lot, yeah, and

I'm curious. Sophia, yes, um, you know when you're in your everyday life and you are still continually dealing with these oppressions. Is there something that helps you in those moments or or helps you deal with that? Because I'm I'm here like it sounds like it's a constant thing that you're having to deal with? Yeah,

I, I, like a lot. I think of my mission that helps me, but I also like to do a lot of self-care to check in with myself. I love being in nature that that way, that's where I can connect with my ancestors, asked for guidance. I educate, of course, when I come across certain people, I would like to educate them there and then, and that really helps me. But I always reflect on my mission and why I'm doing the things I'm doing, and how that's going to make an impact, whether, if I can help one or two people understand then I think that's good.

Thank you for that. Speaking about that, were just speaking about that. How it's scary might not be, I don't know, but brave to challenge that.

Yeah, I think sometimes we must do these scary things to get to where we want to get, we must. I mean, people might say I have a lot of resilience. I have strength, but I’d like to reflect on where that came from. I would like to have resilience and strength in being brought to me in a positive way, where I had to fight for this, had to fight for justice, just basic human rights and how that impacted on my everyday life. We have people in communities living on, I don't know, on alert. They're just constantly in alert mode, just here, not just anywhere, even here. So, we have people in communities where they see someone in uniform immediately. That's an alert. Need to be on a lot, because people in uniform back in the refugee camp really took advantage of refugees. So, when we hear and see that, that's like, okay, power and let's be on a lot, which shouldn't have to be, but it is so it's, it's the little things that sometimes are taken for granted, but they do have a lot of influence and power, and Whatever that is, yeah, that's a constant. It's a constant, alertness and fight that you are, yeah, yeah, something that I think I've had this chat maybe with my family and some few people in the community. Uh, something that maybe is not on the mind of Western people. Certainly is, for people of colour, is before you leave your home in the morning, whether you're going shopping, whether you're going to work, whatever that is, you're going where I don't know if some subconscious or unconscious or sometimes conscious, we always check and think, okay, will I be? How would I be looked at? How would I be regarded as when I step on the street, or when I go into that office for an interview, when, when I get to meet this employer for the first time just because of my skin colour. So, we were talking about privilege earlier. So just for you, being born white and just that alone gives you a lot of power and a lot of things you don't need to worry about, whereas for us, it's constant, we must be checking in with ourselves. How would I this make things worse? Would this make things okay with this? And it's not just me, when I go out there, represent the entire black community, whereas for someone who's white and Western, it's just them. For me, I do something wrong. It's the whole community. It's the whole African nation.

Yeah, so, and that's portrayed as well, yes? 

Media, yes,

yeah, always looking up for each other in that regard. Yeah.

Yeah, and it's, it's like I was, I was visualizing that when you were talking about it, like that battle, battle, you constantly in a battle while I know I can easily, yes, be peaceful, be ignorance, be pleasant. Absolutely in my life, having not much to worry about at all, it's and I started to understand more during this course, as well, like that is not okay. Yeah, it's just not okay to be there, to be pleasant, and just don't do anything about it.

Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's unfortunate, it's, it's been going around for many, many years, still going around. I mean, I'm working with children who are of colour, and I see it, and so it's, it's my I see it as my role to help them educate them, to give them that chance to stand up and fight this, this system where they shouldn't Have to their children. They deserve, you know, equal opportunity, but unfortunately, just for the colour of their skin, that's not there. It's not it's taken away from them. So, we're fighting those, those battles all of us, constantly.

And something that really stood up for me while you were speaking. This was a very gentle approach to that fight, and maybe it's the wrong word, or maybe it might not resonate with you, but is there? There's something about that...

Yeah, we talked about that like you come from a harsh reality, but you kept your softness. You kept that love, that that warmth, because how you approach and how you have your goal there. It's a very gentle, a very warm, warming way of fighting. We were quite amazed about how, how you kept that in all that harshness.

Yeah, there's, I mean, they say you always have a choice, but there's different ways to look at it. I considered myself that I didn't have a choice but to go about it. I experienced a lot of challenges in when I was back, when I was employed,

there was a lot of systemic issues, challenges, racism, that I didn't really understand. And when you are experiencing a lot of that, you start doubting yourself. Like, maybe I'm not smart enough. Maybe something's wrong with me. Maybe this is not for me, simply because of the way you're treated constantly. So, when I went and started yellow balloon therapy, I thought, this is my opportunity to not only stand up for myself, but for others of similar who are facing similar challenges and who are fighting similar battles, certainly for children and young people. And so that's how I started, and giving myself that permission to start speaking up and start sharing my experiences and start advocating for others myself, including, included. So that's where I said, okay, I have it's a choice that I chose to do this. It isn't easy, it's not easy, and I shouldn't be doing this, but given the circumstances and

like I'm quite amazed by, yes, you come from such horror and such a different culture than it is here and like here, regardless of where you come from, like, it's a horrible situation. What's happening here right now, even, yeah, and then to come to play therapy, come into the essence. I find the essence

I always tell some people that, because people would say, this must be hard for you, given what you've gone through, doing therapy and helping people with a lot of traumas and a lot of challenges, this must be really, really hard for you. And I would just say it's hard, but it it's something that's needed. It's needed. I know I needed someone like me when I was young and going through a lot, it was certainly not people of colour who I can go and talk to here, and we don't have a lot of therapists from African background that children can really go and talk to and relate to. And secondly, I know we go to school to study these things, but I lived it. It's my life. I lived it, and I certainly can see the power of play, because I don't need to go to school to learn about play techniques to understand how helpful that is, because I lived through it, and I got to experience the power of playing, and so I think that's why I need to help others.

One of my questions here for you was, how did your organization tackle the structural, institutional oppression? And I think you just answered that, through the approach of play, which gets that gentle, warm aspect fighting or challenging.

Yeah, it is, it is I, I know when I was, when I finished year 12 and said, I'm going to I did psychology first, and immediately in my culture that there's a lot of stigmas when it comes to mental health. And so, when you go and say you're going to study psychology, imagine the isolation you'd experience with that. So, as I was saying, imagine the isolation of face I faced when everyone, not just in my community, but in general, learned that I was going to study psychology in my community, the immediate thought was like, oh, so you going to be reading our minds. And I don't know if I'd like you to be reading my mind all the time, so trying to explain to people that I cannot read minds. I wish I could. I cannot, so it's not going to be about reading your mind. So, I think that's where my advocacy started, trying to help the community understand the nature of therapy or mind, mental health and so forth. So, it was explaining, advocating, first for myself, why I'm doing what I'm doing, and how that's beneficial for not just me, but for our whole community, for society, and so that's where it all started, and we're talking about gender because I am a woman. Yeah, I'm a female. So, it was also like, regarded as, like a taboo for a woman to go into this field of what they thought it was like reading people's minds, but shouldn't be doing that as a woman, because that's not going to look good when you get married or that. So, I had to challenge that as well and fight that. So, there's, like, so many battles, especially you're a woman, you have other challenges added on top of the challenges of being a person of colour, so you're also a woman. So, there's more, even more challenges for you with that. So yeah, yeah.

So, I can hear as well as Yeah. Like you're battling system here, but you're as well battling some things from your Yes, yes,

So, there's a lot of battles that you must constantly work with. So being a woman, you having to explain yourself all the time why you're doing what you're doing. Why is it so important for women to be doing and, yeah, why are you doing it? Your women, so having to explain yourself over and over. Yeah. And then you come to society, you also have that battle your person of colour. Why should we trust you? Do you have experience in this? Do you have the knowledge of that, even though you show your qualifications and until they read what your qualifications are, they don't take you seriously simply because of the colour of your skin, and then doing something that isn't quite how do you say on track for most people who see therapy, completely Different. Yes,

So, we have completely different approaches of how we engage with clients. I mean, you're both with us, you've both done placements with us, and you see how we engage with different clients differently the approaches we take. It's somehow different to the generalized ways of engaging with clients. Yeah,

I wonder from that organizational perspective that we were speaking about, and being a person of colour, but also women like you mentioned in this field, what’s your understanding of allyship, and who would you consider allies? 

being first, being a. Woman. I mean, there's a lot of females in this in this field, so that somehow makes it easier, but at the same time challenging for people of colour, who are maybe men seeking therapy, and they come to talk to you. You're a woman. There's some aspect of their cultures that might make it challenging for them to engage or open up or do certain therapeutic practices. So that makes it challenging in one way, but also maybe it's good because we're working towards that cultural understanding and helping them see different ways of engaging so hopefully, we get more males of colour in this field but being a female majority, therapist makes it challenging. Being a person of colour is challenging in of itself, because I may have different views, and we all have come with different experiences, of course, but the system is not supportive of my experiences per se, and so I might come up with different ways of seeing things or engaging with clients, and it might not be supported, because majority wins, right? So that battle that I must constantly experience and having to always explain myself, and I shouldn't. So, it's, it's, it's challenging. It makes it hard. Yeah,

So, it's challenging, yeah, and in those systems who are essentially people, is there, like, from your own experience of being, has there been someone or some healing space

where you see that support, yeah, connection, something that you would expect absolutely,

There is some, I mean, you know, stars, they strongly advocating for this inclusion or anti oppression and all that. So, there's certain therapists or professionals, professionals that I trust or able to open up and share my views, and they will be, I know they'll be accepted or acknowledged. I think that really helps. And I know have my external supervisor, she's amazing. She is very understanding, she's accepting, and is someone that I know I can talk to, and she she'll be one of those allies that I can go to and share my views and experiences and know that they'll be accepted. Yeah, so I know the Uni is trying very hard to start getting students to understand and engage in therapeutic ways of thinking that would be not Western, but inclusive. So that's a good thing as well. So yeah,

yeah, there's just one question that's an extension to that allyship I know, almost towards the Hindu. Okay, maybe just quickly, if we can touch on that, what actions or behaviours would you expect from people that you're working close with, that you consider

yeah, yeah. Is there anything I think in terms of actions, it's, it's all about just being curious and not, I always tell people is, don't just go by the book, because these books are Western. Western books. Be curious when you when you come across a new client, it doesn't have to be from migrants or African background. You be prepared to learn to retrain yourself. You're starting from scratch. And as we learn from the profession, is that the client is the expert of their life. So have that mindset, I'm not the expert here. What can I learn? It's like I'm going to school, I'm coming to learn. What can I learn from you? Teach me about your ways of things. Take me through that, your culture, your ways, or your individualistic safety net, or whatever that is. Be curious and be open to learn and don't just go by the book, because those books are westernized.

Yeah, wondering like, if Bauke and Lauren has anything to add with regards to for future students, maybe leaders, educators, is there something you'd like to share about this conversation?

Sorry, so with regards to this context of anti-oppressive practices, yes, would you like to say maybe one word or two words that have stayed with you from this conversation or your lived experience that might help future counsellors or psychotherapists Who might be leaders in these roles, or educators

I think the last thing that you said, like you're always a student, like everyone you encounter, is a teacher, and it's being open to that, set aside your own stuff, your own knowledge, because there is a teacher in front of you.

I think similarly to that with what you've spoken about today. I think the key message that I've taken, especially even listening to all our positioning statements, is this that you don't know, you don't know the sort of oppressions someone's face by looking at them. You don't know the past experiences and the trauma. And I think what really stood out to me is these, these oppressions, are still happening. It doesn't stop when you, you know, come to Australia or, you know, get an education here and get to that status. You know, you still must deal with these systems constantly, you know, beating on you really. I mean, that's the way I view it. So I think as council. Dollars and aspiring to work in a non-oppressive way with people of culturally diverse backgrounds. We just need to, like you said, always be curious and make sure that we're never We're never getting stuck in that I know what this person has been through or, you know, I I understand, I think, yeah, always seeking clarification is one of the best ways we can go about it. 

There is one side for me, there's one side question to that. In this subject, I struggled a little bit with one thing, and that's I find my strengths lie in connection, and I want to work with clients from that deeper connection. But what I've learned in class is the opposite, like, it's like, you can't connect because you're white and you can't know what it is. And it's true, like, but I wonder if there is a bridge there too.

There is definitely, yeah, because mind you, the person you're working with is, is not just a client, is an individual, first, and as people, we are wired to connect. That's the nature of human and if people, they will see that you are willing to connect. You want to connect. And being individuals, we that opportunity and connection can be built. It can be there. I mean, we have, when we migrated here, the people we that were assigned to work with my family, they were, of course, white, and we are being people of colour, so to this day, we still connected. So, it's just a matter of how you engage with them and how, how human you, if I can say how human you are with them, see them as humans, see them as individuals, and they can see that. They can sense that. And you, you need to just be open to learning that connection definitely,

Yeah, yeah, because it's like I said in the car, like the focus is on, like, whatever you are in your presentation, yeah, and, and, and now I have, and I understand why that is, why that is important, but I kind of feel like And now I have to eat that and be often thinking and be me, yeah, kind of yeah and be yourself, think it ties into that bit that we spoke about ignorance. 

So having that information about that awareness, but like the outside, might he present, but then holding it lightly deep, then still have that human connection.

yeah, yeah. And as well knowing that, because that's everyone depends, no matter who you are, where you come from, and then having the acknowledgement that sometimes it doesn't connect,

yeah, sometimes, yeah, yeah. And I think for most of us, the challenge is we come with an agenda when we come to engage with clients, or not just that from people from minority backgrounds, just clients in general, we come with an agenda, and because we tend to be focusing a lot on that agenda and trying to take some of that off, that prevents us from that genuine connection with whoever is in front of us. So just having that awareness that may come with this agenda, and try to put that agenda aside and just connect, just be there, just be present the way I engage with some of my clients from cold families, is that think I've shared with you is I just go there as a friend, because just go and have a chat with them as a friend. I. Explore things as you would with a friend and try to help them process things. And that makes it not just take the pressure away, but you're more able to connect with them in a deeper level when they see that there's more power between us. 

I guess we can go on about this. any last commentary? Otherwise. 

Yeah, thank you guys, thank you. I'm glad you see it's this is exactly why I did I went into this journey is to help more emerging therapists to really start being curious about this field and how we can all help reshape the way things have always been.